A twisty-turny episode today... Well, it's not really. It's much more straightforward. No intro, straight into a peach of an episode with Oklahoma State University's Associate Professor of Management, John Holden. Jon and John discuss REITs, how they may in fact be a highly flawed and dangerous path for a business to tread in the long term; John also talks about the fairly recent-ish NYT story about dubious marketing practises of gambling companies onto US university campuses, and we also discuss something Jon may have in fact completely dreamt up. Still no Fintan, but his amateur love of Adult Leisure magazines is also discussed. 54 minutes of pure gold. Enjoy the episode, and see you in 2023!